Curse

Kaon · Sep 21, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Against the "switch target noob lol" argument:

So if a ranger overextends well out of monk range he is just supposed to get away? Don't bullshit me like this. The same counts for a monk standing next to his warriors, I really want to kill the goddamn monk at this moment but it's really hard if not impossible. You guys seem to miss the point that stances dumb this game down, and aside from that are overpowered. This argument seems very similar to the "just diversion it" thing.

Against the "WE NEED IT TO SURVIVE" argument.

Bullshit. Defense currently is stronger than it has ever been before. I agree kds would become a problem if aura of stability and balanced stance would be removed, that's why flail needs go. Flail just has no place in this game. Next to that, how about relying on midliners to save you from warriors, and not on your monks? A warrior should be able to destroy a monk that's out of position. I realize most (if not all) of you have not been playing this game from the start. But for over a year monks did not carry stances on their bar and relied completely on midliners to save their ass. Strangely enough this is generally considered the best time of guild wars.

Now nerfing balanced stance and LR to superlong recharge, or shorter recharge with supershort duration would help. It would not make the skills as ridiculous as they are now and I would be happy. But they still represent a bad game mechanic. They can still allow players to cover up their mistakes. Ideally i'd like to see stances almost entirely removed from play, but hey, that's just my utopia. Just fix BS and LR and i'm happy already.

On the Aegis subject.

I definately think Aegis has a place in this game, and so does ward against melee. But if those skills want to be buffed, then guardian, AoS, stances, return, WoH, and patient spirit need to get spanked. Also bsurge needs to get reverted to aoe on enchantment, mirror of ice fixed, and aoe should be plausible so people that ball in wards die. Basically i'm suggesting to get back to 2007 defense lines.

MaaKotka · Sep 21, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

On the Aegis subject.

I definately think Aegis has a place in this game, and so does ward against melee. But if those skills want to be buffed, then guardian, AoS, stances, return, WoH, and patient spirit need to get spanked. Also bsurge needs to get reverted to aoe on enchantment, mirror of ice fixed, and aoe should be plausible so people that ball in wards die. Basically i'm suggesting to get back to 2007 defense lines.

If they nerf single target prots and buff party wide defense monking becomes incredibly boring to play. I don't miss aegis or ward of melee at all.

I agree about nerfing red bar up skills but +damage skills needs to be toned down also. I'd love to see utility to get bigger role in this game.

moriz · Sep 21, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

the overpowered stances are necessary to counter the otherwise overpowered physicals. i agree some of the stances require a slight nerf (lightning reflexes to 40r, balanced stance to 1 KD only on a shorter recharge yeye), but let's not go overboard.

keli · Sep 21, 2009, 03:06 PM // 15:06

funny that mainly frontliners write in this thread :P

but anyway: bring back old aegis and tone down stances to make it unuseable for monks

OR

keep aegis out of play and keep stances

keli · Sep 21, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Against the "WE NEED IT TO SURVIVE" argument.

Bullshit. Defense currently is stronger than it has ever been before. I agree kds would become a problem if aura of stability and balanced stance would be removed, that's why flail needs go. Flail just has no place in this game. Next to that, how about relying on midliners to save you from warriors, and not on your monks? A warrior should be able to destroy a monk that's out of position. I realize most (if not all) of you have not been playing this game from the start. But for over a year monks did not carry stances on their bar and relied completely on midliners to save their ass. Strangely enough this is generally considered the best time of guild wars.

Where do you live? When defense web(aegis+warder+blinder+e/mo runner) was not nerfed it was much more solid than stances....

Kaon · Sep 21, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

If they nerf single target prots and buff party wide defense monking becomes incredibly boring to play. I don't miss aegis or ward of melee at all.

I agree about nerfing red bar up skills but +damage skills needs to be toned down also. I'd love to see utility to get bigger role in this game.

Why would monking be more boring to play? You'll do exactly the same as now, only less red bar pushing, more prekiting and more preprotting. Monks get an even better opportunity to shine and outplay the opponent.

Quote:

Where do you live? When defense web(aegis+warder+blinder+e/mo runner) was not nerfed it was much more solid than stances....

You might be right that in the defensive web time defense was even stronger than it is now, but it's not by much. Remember back then word of heal didn't exist in it's current form, neither did guardian, patient spirit, or aura of stability. In any case i'm of course not pointing to mid 2007 but to 2005 and 2006 when monks had nothing to defend themselves with except protective spirit and a shitty guardian. When eles did not have bsurge, when monks had to spend 15 energy to heal 200health instead of 5, when everyone had 480 health instead of 600. Shit died quickly back then, but that's what helped balance the game. Tiebreaker play was much harder and much less rewarding than it is now.

sk1134 · Sep 21, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

funny that mainly frontliners write in this thread :P

agreed, this now the hammer warrior/knocklock sin qq thread.

i think balanced stance is fine as is, the duration is shorter than its recharge and it offers no blocking, i run some kd on my sin (current build i run is temple strike and wild strike for when temple strike is recharging), and i rarely run my war in pvp.

i quit running stances altogether on my ranger, rapid fire is a better alt to lightning reflexes and pre-casting troll unguent help keep damage to minimum.

the one stance i would like to see changed is flashing blades, the damage it deals should be to adjacent range just like whirling defense.

i think if anet ever decides to nerf balanced stance, they will no doubt nerf some of the kd skills to balance out, heavy kd builds have become an overly effective means to shutting down a target.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 21, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Where do you live? When defense web(aegis+warder+blinder+e/mo runner) was not nerfed it was much more solid than stances....

At least you could shut it down.

Ward was only a problem when:

1) It worked on NPCs (problem with VoD and it has been fixed)
2) People ran it on Me/E (problem with fastcasting)
3) People ran it with Mantra/Glyph of concentration (problem with anti interrupt skills, can easily be fixed)

Aegis was only a problem when:

1) It was radar range (fixed)
2) Glyph allowed for infinite faking (fixed)

Both skills were quite easy to counter with interrupts, AoE in the case of wards, enchantment removal (specifically Mirror) in the case of Aegis.

Blinding Surge was only a problem when:

1) It was 5 energy (fixed)
2) Hex Breaker was insane (fixed)

E/Mo runners were never a problem.

Stances are too much low risk high reward at the moment and it does make positional errors a lot more forgiving and thus devalues (pre-)kiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk1134

i quit running stances altogether on my ranger, rapid fire is a better alt to lightning reflexes and pre-casting troll unguent help keep damage to minimum.

Credibility -> Window

Kaon · Sep 21, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Mitch I think you underestimate the damage output of rapid fire with a short bow and brutal weapon. Arrows go like pewpew.

pah01 · Sep 21, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Mitch I think you underestimate the damage output of rapid fire with a short bow and brutal weapon. Arrows go like pewpew.

Well that may be true [ie: underestimating the damage output] The guy is still bad.

Byron · Sep 21, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Stances should, and most do, require a significant attribute point investment in order to be used effectively.

Distortion was problematic, now pretty okay. Still good on split eles, but that's a natural symbiosis between losing energy and energy storage.

Lightning reflexes, considering expertise is awesome, probably needs to be toned down.

Balanced stance, meh. Should probably remove the no-criticals clause, since the no-KD clause is more than powerful enough. Still takes a sizable tactics investment. I don't like how monks can just ignore bulls for 12-18 seconds, though.

Snow Bunny · Sep 21, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I've avoided commenting on this for a while, but here goes.

Mitch, Kaon, I've read your posts both here and on QQ, where both of you, like it or not, are certainly pushing the game to a much more aggressive style of play.

Aggressive is fine, alright, better than defensive certainly. However, nerfing stances to the extent that's being called for, and asking for edenial to make such a comeback has the potential to make for a meta of unbridled offense.

Mitch's saving grace is his request for a reverted aegis, which would help to alleviate what you'd create. But overall, if Anet were to actually follow through with this, games, instead of being 28 minutes with paragons (assuming nerfs would be required of them too, just making some half-educated assumptions here), it'd be 5 min games of shit blowing up.

Sure, WoH should perhaps be toned down a bit more, but tone it down, nerf stances, and don't nerf offense and stuff would simply die too quickly.

It's fine to nerf defense, but you need to tone down offense as well. The reason teams currently don't die is because of Word and Patient. Nerf either too hard and stuff will simply die at an absurd rate.

You both might have your idyllic notions of what you'd like the game to be, but think back to WM's front and midlines running around without monks at VoD - that wouldn't happen today, they'd explode so fast it'd be laughable.

I'm not attacking either of you here, I'm just suggesting that stances aren't the evil they're being portrayed here. Nerf them if it will indeed make for a better game, but don't just nerf them because you're sick of shit not dying every 20 seconds.

MaaKotka · Sep 21, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Why would monking be more boring to play? You'll do exactly the same as now, only less red bar pushing, more prekiting and more preprotting. Monks get an even better opportunity to shine and outplay the opponent.

I can't see how party wide defense encourages more active play. I think it does just opposite. Ofcourse without party wide defense monks need to red bar up more because of more damage coming through defense webs, but it also makes good pre-protting to count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

You might be right that in the defensive web time defense was even stronger than it is now, but it's not by much. Remember back then word of heal didn't exist in it's current form, neither did guardian, patient spirit, or aura of stability. In any case i'm of course not pointing to mid 2007 but to 2005 and 2006 when monks had nothing to defend themselves with except protective spirit and a shitty guardian. When eles did not have bsurge, when monks had to spend 15 energy to heal 200health instead of 5, when everyone had 480 health instead of 600. Shit died quickly back then, but that's what helped balance the game. Tiebreaker play was much harder and much less rewarding than it is now.

In case you haven't noticed offense have got lots of new and better tools also.

I agree that some or maybe most stances should get toned down, but as I have said it many times already offense needs to get toned down also. I also think that bigger problem than stances are powerful healing and big damage numbers.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 21, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Mitch's saving grace is his request for a reverted aegis, which would help to alleviate what you'd create. But overall, if Anet were to actually follow through with this, games, instead of being 28 minutes with paragons (assuming nerfs would be required of them too, just making some half-educated assumptions here), it'd be 5 min games of shit blowing up.

Why? This wasn't before WoH with passive defense still around either.

There's still other defense like BSurge eles, water eles, midline rits, etc.

Quote:

Sure, WoH should perhaps be toned down a bit more, but tone it down, nerf stances, and don't nerf offense and stuff would simply die too quickly.

The only offense that's really overpowered atm are Primal Rage warriors, Illusion of Pain (not much of an issue 8v8) and hexes. Paragons and rangers are very powerful because a lack of passive defense.

Quote:

It's fine to nerf defense, but you need to tone down offense as well. The reason teams currently don't die is because of Word and Patient. Nerf either too hard and stuff will simply die at an absurd rate.

Bring back LoD, earshot ranger with perhaps a 7-8 second recharge and <80% clause with old healing numbers. LoD was incredibly powerful, but it was a high risk high reward skill and it freed up a lot of room on midliners and flaggers which lead to a lot of build variety.

Whereas WoH is a low risk high reward skill that still forces you to run party healing on midline/flagger.

Quote:

You both might have your idyllic notions of what you'd like the game to be, but think back to WM's front and midlines running around without monks at VoD - that wouldn't happen today, they'd explode so fast it'd be laughable.

Obviously this won't be the case, it's not what I'm striving for, I do however want the game to be less forgiving for mistakes and the overall power level of skills (both offensive and defensive) toned down, the most powerful skills should be skills that are 'counterable' through skilled play, like blinding a warrior as he unloads, interrupting an aegis, forcing people out of a ward by using AoE damage, etc.

Finesse play has disappeared in favor of button mashing and other mindless bars (Primal Rage warriors vs Eviscerate warriors is a good example).

I'm pretty sure that I stated several times that E-Denial doesn't need buffing, skills like WoH need toning down, this would be an indirect buff to energy denial and even then I very much doubt it would dictate the meta.

king_trouble · Sep 21, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

You want the pvp system to be less forgiving? Then you'll just discourage people more from joining the already stale and sterile pvp system. You need to bring people into pvp, instead of driving people out or else you will basicly see the same guilds and players running around, and who likes that? Sure you then create harder system but at the cost of drawing people in which in the long run will drive people out. Think next time about the long term effects rather than the instant gratification of getting a kill.

moriz · Sep 21, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

i find it somewhat hilarious that two years ago, when LoD was the end-all/be-all of pvp, people were complaining that the single point of failure introduced (a single well-placed dshot would instantly end games) was bad for the game. now, the same people want that single point of failure back.

i also think we can all agree that frontline and backline power needs to be scaled back, while raising midline power. the problem is that we'll have to nerf almost everything since NF to achieve that. given how anet usually react to their blunders, i'd say this is impossible to achieve.

Kaon · Sep 21, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[FONT=Tahoma]Mitch, Kaon, I've read your posts both here and on QQ, where both of you, like it or not, are certainly pushing the game to a much more aggressive style of play.

I'm very much aware of this. That's because it's needed. Currently balanced teams are bashing into each other for ages before either of them wipes and even then pulling back allows an easy recover and try to win at the tiebreaker. Pressure is dead, the only reliable way to push through defense is a spike, or ignore it and go for the tiebreaker. Where is the opportunity to just send a monk back against a split, and rickroll their mainteam?

What's wrong with games actually not lasting 28 minutes? What's wrong with teams sometimes actually losing in 8 minutes straight? What's wrong actually being able to wipe a team?

I do however, understand your reluctance. It is a feeling being shared by most of the community, by arenanet, and I have it too. Most of us often have no problems with offense being nerfed, but the moment defense get touched our stomach plays up and we think really careful about it. But these feelings should not control gamebalance. Rational thought should. Over the past years, defense has been consistantly buffed while offense has largely stayed the same.

There's a detailed thread about it here: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10373682

It's 5 months old but still covers the load. It basically serves as a counter towards the argument: "offense has gotten a lot stronger too!" Because the answer is: barely.

Paragons have been there before WoH was buffed. But I agree they're too powerful and a flawed class. In my opinion this class should get all it's skills killed in pvp. Then the only other offensive thing is mirror of ice. It just makes water eles that much more powerful, especially with the newly added winters embrace.

Paragons are the biggest danger here and that's why I agree with mitch aegis or shields up needs to see a return. Or just remove them from pvp. The real problem with paragons has always been that a spear deals more damage than a sword or axe, but Anet can't alter base weapon damage.

So really, is it that crazy what we're saying? A couple of years ago, the game was vastly more aggressive than it is right now, and it was definately considered more fun by most players. I've always been a very aggressive player, I like to consider offense the best defense because it doesn't discriminate builds. If you run 6 offensive characters, no matter what opponent you face, you can always rely on the fact that the opponent will die. That's why I run byob, it's got 7 or 6 all out offensive characters. But even then a backline can survive for suprisingly long times or even get away just because of the sheer power of defensive skills currently. It's a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing joke.

If you don't support defense getting weaker. Then you support offense getting stronger. This leads to overpowered skills otherwise known as powercreep. Powercreep dumbs the game down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i find it somewhat hilarious that two years ago, when LoD was the end-all/be-all of pvp, people were complaining that the single point of failure introduced (a single well-placed dshot would instantly end games) was bad for the game. now, the same people want that single point of failure back.

Well yeah because back then everyone still had the amazing memories from prophecies days in their minds. LoD had it's flaws and I was among the persons that called it to be nerfed. I regret that but it's definately NOT my fault that izzy buffed word of healing, and guardian in the same update. Most of the smart please realized pretty soon how LoD is so much more preferable than the horrible crap we're into right now.

Quote:

i also think we can all agree that frontline and backline power needs to be scaled back, while raising midline power. the problem is that we'll have to nerf almost everything since NF to achieve that. given how anet usually react to their blunders, i'd say this is impossible to achieve.

If by frontline you mean flail and paragons. Yes.
If by raising midline power you mean Aegis. Yes.

Bsurge needs to be nerfed to its old properties. Ideally i'd like to see the skill go and see eles back to ether prodigy and blinding flash.
Half the water skills in the game need to be nerfed. Ice spikes, blurred vision, shard storm and deep freeze are supposed to be the staple skills. I really don't like mirror of ice it's much too powerful.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 22, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by king_trouble

You want the pvp system to be less forgiving? Then you'll just discourage people more from joining the already stale and sterile pvp system. You need to bring people into pvp, instead of driving people out or else you will basicly see the same guilds and players running around, and who likes that? Sure you then create harder system but at the cost of drawing people in which in the long run will drive people out. Think next time about the long term effects rather than the instant gratification of getting a kill.

Do you know how many people stopped playing pvp because of powerplay?

Bringing new players in GW1 at this point is idealism at best, trying to balance the game is too I suppose however I see the latter as the best way to still try to achieve the former.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i find it somewhat hilarious that two years ago, when LoD was the end-all/be-all of pvp, people were complaining that the single point of failure introduced (a single well-placed dshot would instantly end games) was bad for the game. now, the same people want that single point of failure back.

I never complained about LoD afair, a single DShot most definitely did not end games, repeated DShots and/or Signet of Humilities could, a Diversion would be devastating as well, especially at VoD.

Strong skills that are prone to shut down are a lot better for the game than strong skills that are very hard to shut down.

Quote:

i also think we can all agree that frontline and backline power needs to be scaled back, while raising midline power. the problem is that we'll have to nerf almost everything since NF to achieve that. given how anet usually react to their blunders, i'd say this is impossible to achieve.

I don't think midlines need to be changed drastically, simply adress Primal Rage and possibly Flail/Enraging Charge a little. Tone down WoH/Patient and Recuperation and buff Aegis, LoD, some alternatives for Patient Spirit (Dwayna's Kiss, Words of Comfort, etc.). I garantee that the game will be much more enjoyable and more finesse based than it is now.

Of course the tiebreaker is still something that's ultimately bad for the game, at this time however I don't know how this can be improved on. Going back to VoD would definitely NOT be an improvement.

qvtkc · Sep 22, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

I think stances should end when you are knocked down.

kedde · Sep 22, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I can't believe so many people are so stupid.
Just because the title of the thread doesn't state an issue with anything besides stances it doesn't mean there are no other problems at all.

There are issues with powercreep in every larger aspect or archetype of skills.
Movement and movement control has too powerful skills.
Snares are cheap and spammable, things like featherfoot and PR etc. are way too powerful meaning any tiny hole can be taken advantage of and that anything can be countered way too easily.
Damage has too powerful skills, midlines deal too much damage for extended periods of time.
Defense is way too powerful. Bar pushing is cheap, prots are extremely powerful and everything is very cheap.

So yeah, everything needs toning down.

This was a focus on something very gamebreaking, stances.
These in particular are in need of changes.

A thread can hardly focus on every different aspect.